Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Let’s Talk! Autism & Neurodivergence: Experiences in Singapore vs. America (ft. Asher)

Hosted by Amanda Antell. Guest speaker Asher. Produced by the Let's Talk! Podcast Collective, editor Carrie Cantrell. Audio editing and transcription by Hannah "Asher" Sham. Web hosting by Eugene Holden.

Let’s Talk! Autism & Neurodivergence: Experiences in Singapore vs. America (ft. Asher)

Autism & Neurodivergence: Experiences in Singapore vs. America (ft. Asher)

Edited by: Hannah “Asher” Sham

Summary: In this episode of “Let’s Talk! Autism,” Amanda is joined by Asher, who shares her experience of growing up as a neurodivergent person in Singapore. The conversation highlights the differences in societal attitudes towards autism and neurodivergence between Singapore and America.

Hosted By: Amanda Antell

Guest Speakers: Asher

Produced By: Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective

Audio Editing & Transcription: Hannah “Asher” Sham

Web Hosting: Eugene Holden  

Editor: Carrie Cantrell 

Released on: 11/22/2024

More resources at our home website. 

 

Episode Transcript

Amanda: Hello and welcome to today’s Let’s Talk! Autism episode. I’m your host and producer, Amanda and I was joined today by Asher, who talks about their experience growing up as a neurodivergent person in Singapore. Among the topics discussed included the openness or lack thereof surrounding disability and how attitudes differ between America and Singapore. In particular, Singapore have specific schools dedicated to autistic and other neurodivergent children, but they are treated like anyone else in the population. In comparison to America, I have repeatedly witnessed attempts to integrate us into general society, but we are often treated as invalid. It is agreed that both countries can learn from each other and that improvements for neurodivergent people can be made from both sides. 

Well, Hannah, Thank you for being on Let’s Talk! Autism today. I am the host and producer, Amanda, and I’m looking forward to having a conversation about autism in Singapore.

Asher: Thank you! Thanks for having me.

Amanda: So, let’s go ahead and start this episode off with introductions. please give your name, pronoun, major, slash, occupation, and disability.

Asher: my name is Hannah. I go by Asher. my pronouns are she/ her. And, my major and occupation, at least right now, is an audio technician. But, I hope to be a film producer one day. And, my disability is ADHD.

Amanda: Thank you. My name is Amanda. I use she, her pronouns. My major, slash, occupation is a part time student, as well as, applying to vet school, I hope to be a veterinarian one day, and I have high functioning autism. So, thank you again for being here today. I really am looking forward to having conversations about autism and disability in different countries. I have for a while. I did one recently with a different guest about South Korea, so I’m really looking forward to an episode about Singapore. Especially, with my in-laws’ connection there, so, this’ll be awesome. 

Asher: For sure! Thanks for having me! 

Amanda: So, to start off with, what is your personal connection to Singapore, and when did you move to America?

Asher: So, my personal connection to Singapore is; my family and I moved over there when I was just about 9 years old. They basically moved us over there just for work and stuff. I moved back here to the States when I was 18 / 19 years old. So, for quite a bit of time I was living in Singapore for most of my life. I moved to Singapore from Texas, so I was born in Texas.

Amanda: So, you said that you moved to Singapore when you were nine. If I may ask, did you grow up speaking any other languages?

Asher: I did grow up speaking Cantonese, and a little bit of Mandarin, at a very young age. My parents came from Hong Kong and They migrated to America, to Texas, and had me and my older brother in the States. So, yeah, there was just a little bit of that Asian background going on there.

Amanda: Yeah, and the reason I ask is because Malaysia and Singapore are really known for being very multicultural and diverse, and it’s very common for people to speak more than three languages there, so that’s kind of what made me ask. So, in terms of how autism and neurodivergence is treated in society, what is the biggest difference you have noticed in America versus Singapore?

Asher: Well, the biggest difference I’ve noticed in America versus Singapore is that Singapore doesn’t really talk about autism or neurodivergence all too much. At least, In conversation, is what I’ve noticed. Sure, there are some special schools for autism and neurodivergence, I believe. But, I only found out about that when I became a teenager living in Singapore. Before that, even living in Singapore as a kiddo, I didn’t really know anything about autism or neurodivergence or even people with special needs. It felt like it was almost a little bit “hid away”. And, even if someone did have it; It’s not that they were treated differently. They were treated the same, in public, but I would not know how they were treated in private or with their family or anything like that. But, here in America. I say there is like a really big voice for autism and neurodivergence as well, and there’s just so much going around about just how society treats it. Honestly, when I came here to the States, only then did I start to have a little bit more of a knowledge of autism and neurodivergence and start to learn about that.

Amanda: So, you mentioned you were diagnosed with ADHD. When were you diagnosed with ADHD and was it in Singapore or America?

Asher: It was more here in the States and it was actually pretty recently. Yeah, like I said, I only learned about autism and neurodivergence when I came here to the States and for the longest time I’ve had difficulty just staying still and just studying in school. I had issues with making friends and all sorts of other issues up until the point when I came here to the States and started going into college. And I met a couple of friends in, a community. And, One of them, or a couple of them, pointed out, like, “oh, do you have ADHD? Or do you have some sort of learning disability or something?” And, I’m like, “no, not that I know of.”. And, that just called to attention of, “hey, I should actually get this checked out.”. It was just this whole process of trying to find someone to get it diagnosed, and also just being very afraid. Because, I grew up in this whole culture, Asian culture, where I guess it’s just looked down upon where you’re not normal, I don’t really know how to describe it. I’m sure that there are a lot of Asian American people out there, families out there, kids out there, that also have gone through the same thing; where there’s this pressure of trying to do well in school and trying to do well in life in general. And, that’s what I was facing pretty much when I came here to the States. I would say that there wasn’t really a pressure from my parents, so to speak. But, I had placed the pressure on myself just from, I guess just from the stereotype and just from how I grew up. just wanting to make my parents proud, wanting to make sure that I was doing well in school. But I was struggling in school and I had to do something about it. 

Amanda: Can I ask what, your parents reaction was after you were diagnosed? Like, would you say they were happy? Were they sad? Like, what about the rest of your family?

Asher: I didn’t really come out about it. Like I said, I only figured that out recently. I would say half a year or less ago that I unofficially diagnosed with ADHD or found out that I had ADHD, at least. And, I did tell my brother, my older brother, about it and he sort of had a knowledge and know how and was supportive, I’ll put it that way. But, I don’t know, I guess I still just have that fear of telling my parents that I do have, ADHD, or I do have this kind of… Sounds bad. But, in my mind, “difficulty in learning” because of that. 

Amanda: One thing I would say is, you don’t have to feel guilty about having any of your experiences or your feelings about them. Your experiences are valid, they’re your own, and whether or not they reflect, American Chinese or Singaporean Chinese as a whole, it doesn’t really matter, cause they’re still your experiences. So, I just wanted to reassure you there, I’m not sure if I’m helping at all.

Asher: I appreciate that. 

Amanda: I believe you and I validate your experiences. I’m not even sure if I’m helping you.

Asher: No, you’re good. I appreciate that. Yeah, it’s definitely a struggle, just with the culture of, at least Asian culture, just growing up and, I don’t want to stereotype it, but there is just a lot of pressure in performing well. And, having that difficulty in studying and having ADHD or autism or any kind of, like, disability in general, it’s hard to figure out, like, “okay, what am I supposed to do now?”, or ” how am I supposed to live up to what my parents have for me?”. Also just going back towards the culture or society in Singapore and just how autism and neurodivergence is treated. Singapore is very competitive when it comes to schooling. Kids at a young age in Singapore, parents are already like planning on what kind of uni they’re going into or what kind of high school they’re going into. And you need to take all these Major tests when you’re about to finish a grade in school. And, there’s just a lot of hold on how well you do in class. So much, it’s a little bit like a hierarchy, even in school. Students, who do well, get like a special tie or are called a “teacher’s aide”? A little bit like a teacher’s aide. It gives them authority too, which I wasn’t a really big thing on. But yeah, anyway, I went on a complete tangent there.

Amanda: not really, I actually think that the more personal experiences you talk about in this episode it gives context to what your answers are going to be later on in this episode, and even what you’ve said before. It actually is interesting you talk about that because for number four; how was autism and neurodivergence treated in Singapore in your experience? And would you say it’s better or worse in America? And I know you’ve kind of talked about that a little bit already, but would you like to expand on it?

Asher: yeah, I’m not sure about Singapore now because it has been a hot minute since I’ve been back there. But, like I said, there are special schools in Singapore that I have seen. whether it’s for autism or neurodiversions, I’m not really sure. I’ve not ever really looked into it. but, I would say in terms of just, like, how it’s treated, I would say America is definitely better. At least there’s like a voice for autism and for neurodivergence here in the States versus in Singapore. There’s not really a way to Make your thoughts known. As far as I’ve known, Singapore doesn’t really allow for protests. And, I guess freedom of speech isn’t exactly implemented there as much. I think it’s also just the fact that there are so many different cultures that live over there. where one person will say one thing and then another person will say something else. And there’s just gonna be this whole fight going on. Yeah, I would say, yeah, definitely America treats autism better.

Amanda: so, correct me if I’m wrong, does Singapore have a major religious body or religious authority like Malaysia does or not? 

Asher: Not exactly, no. Just because of how much of a “boiling pot” Singapore is. There are many different kinds of religions over there. So, like Christianity, Daoism, Islamic, etc. There’s like temples and churches everywhere you go, pretty much. Which, I guess that’s what makes Singapore such a unique place. Like, there’s so many different cultures and so many different people all in one place.

Amanda: Yeah, the reason I asked that is because just with my own experience and going to Malaysia and seeing my in-laws and how they live and obviously their culture. The biggest cultural conflict in Malaysia is usually the ethnic tensions between Chinese and Malaysians and also Malaysia is under Sharia law. but I honestly don’t know anything about Singapore in regards to this dynamic. I’m just kind of curious.

Asher: Yeah, I mean, I’m not really too sure about the religious end of things, but it is pretty peaceful over there. people just go to church or go to the temple, however they want. In fact, when I was living in Singapore the church I went to was right next to a Taoist temple, which was, like, right across the street. And, there was never a religious fight going on in the street between the two. Which I feel like was a good thing. You don’t see, Christians or Taoists going at each other on the streets or anything like that! Yeah, it’s very peaceful. People of different backgrounds and religions just could just sit together in a hawker center or in a food court and just eat together. And it doesn’t matter what you believe in or where you come from, like, at the end of the day you’re a human being. 

Amanda: Yeah, exactly. I’m, like, really happy you said hawker stand because; I really wish my wife was in this conversation with us because, she would just talk about her favorite hawker stand in Kuala Lumpur. Sorry, that just makes me smile. 

Asher: No, it’s good. I love hawkers, and I could, yeah, go on about hawkers. There’s so many different foods in Singapore. It’s amazing. I love it! 

Amanda: That was like my favorite part about Malaysia. Just, I would say that probably had the best food out of any country. My wife and I have traveled to Malaysia. Definitely, had the best food. Again, I really wish I had gone to Singapore when I was there just to see the contrast and I know we’re kind of getting off topic. But, When I was there, there seemed to be, like, a really big rivalry between Malaysia and Singapore, and I don’t know if we want to get into that there. But, whenever I was at the hotel in Malaysia, whenever someone was from Singapore, they made it a point to show off all of their duty free bags of goodies. And, they made it a point to say how they were there for a cheap weekend shopping trip.

Asher: So, yeah. For sure. There definitely is some history between Singapore and Malaysia. Malaysia used to own Singapore. I don’t know, 70s? 80s? Uh, time? History? Until, Singapore decided to have their own country, so to speak. So, yeah, I wouldn’t say bad blood, but there’s definitely tensions between Singapore and Malaysia. Also, just the fact that I’ve heard that there are some issues with Getting clean water. Because, Singapore used to get clean water from Malaysia just across the bridge through, like, pipelines because they are separate and no longer like the same country. It’s definitely some sort of tension going on with like, “oh, we want clean water!”. But, “you guys are taking clean water from us!”, And stuff like that. 

Amanda: My wife, like, went into that before and it’s, like, just really fascinating history. I always think it’s kind of funny because now that Singapore is its own thing It’s like one of the wealthiest countries in the world and like one of the most expensive places to live in whereas Malaysia I think it’s getting better, but definitely isn’t as financially well off as Singapore by any stretch. But, then again a lot of countries aren’t. like Singapore is ridiculously wealthy, but I also think that’s really cool.

Asher: Yeah. It definitely is more of, like, a “banking city” than anything else. In, like, a trade city. 

Amanda: So, the next question relates to what I just asked you. But, during your childhood, how did you notice that autism and neurodivergence were treated in the Singaporean Chinese culture, and this doesn’t have to be in Singapore specifically. It could also be in, like, the American or Hong Kong culture as well. I think you might have mentioned this already, but do you know if it has changed at all?

Asher: Well, I can only speak for my own family in general. And, I guess I just feel blessed that I grew up in a family that’s really loving and caring and have opened their doors to every person and every background, like whatever background you come from, kind of feel. Like I said, when I came here to the States, did I only know about autism and neurodivergence. But, even then, when I was in Singapore, there were very rare chances where I did meet someone that had autism. And they were just treated like normally. I feel like they had a lot of happiness, at least from what I could tell. Which I guess was good. I say, “I guess”, but like I said that’s in, like, public. But, I won’t speak for how they are treated in private. Whether it’s changed at all, I’m sure it’s gotten better? Hopefully, it’s gotten better. I feel like it’s all about, bringing awareness to people who have autism and people who have neurodivergence. 

Amanda: The reason I asked this question is because I was kind of wondering; so, you and your family went to Singapore when you were nine and that means that you had your primary education there, correct?

Asher: Yep. That’s right. 

Amanda: So, I know you weren’t undiagnosed with ADHD at the time. But, were teachers or kids, did they ever pick up on your learning difficulties, or were you ever bullied or mistreated because of that, if I may ask?

Asher: Oh, for sure. Yeah, that was definitely a difficult time. I guess, it also didn’t help that I was the only American speaking person in the public school. In a public school for Singaporeans and Malaysians. And just the way I spoke and just the way I behaved was very strange to them on top of just not doing very well in school. It was difficult for sure. Also, schooling system is very different from America’s schooling system. So, by the time I went over to Singapore at nine years old, they were already in the middle of their final exams when I had just finished a grade, pretty much. So, I had to wait a year, or so before being able to enter into the next grade. And, even then I had to enter, like, a placement test. Which made me lose another year, just because I wasn’t able to develop very well with my mathematics or something along the lines of that. I don’t really remember. Definitely, I was bullied, and definitely I was singled out for being the “American Kid”, and just for not doing very well in school in general. It was definitely a rough time, at least in public school, which I was very lucky. Only after two or three years, in the public school, my parents just decided to take me out because my self esteem had lowered so much. Just from not doing well in school. And that, I guess also affected my mental health too. They took me out and took me into homeschooling instead. Which, I don’t know, I wasn’t sure if that was a good move or a bad move. Because, then I also just didn’t really have any friends at all. All that to say though is, I wouldn’t trade those negative times at all for anything. Because, it shaped me into who I am now and also taught me to be kind, and to treat other people kinder. Taking that hard times, all that bullying, all that being singled out. Taking that and turning that into just kindness towards other people. Because I’ve felt terrible then and I would never want another person to feel that way either. 

Amanda: That’s a really empathetic stance you have. Because, I was severely bullied when I was in middle school. I was bullied some, in primary school. And, I forget if Singapore counts elementary and middle school as primary school. I think they do? Correct me if I’m wrong, but basically during primary school I was severely bullied as well. I wasn’t diagnosed with autism until I was 31. Because, in the 90s, in America, It was just thought that girls and people raised as girls either didn’t get autism or if we did, it was really rare and really severe when it happened. So, I just did not fit the diagnostic criteria, despite my poor mother, like, taking me to several different specialists to try to get me diagnosed. But, they just told her I would grow out of it, which is, we both know the worst thing you could possibly say to a parent with a neurodivergent kid. Cause, we don’t grow out of it. In fact, I would say we keep Growing in our unique traits and our weirdness. not even weirdness, we just keep being who we are, you know?

Asher: “Uniqueness”, I would say. 

Amanda: Yeah, “uniqueness”. Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. We blossom or turn into butterflies.

Asher: Yes, we blossom into a unique and different kind of plant. Like, I think of it this way. There are many kinds of plants in a garden and lots of people just love to single out this unique plant. Like, “it has spots? What the heck is going on with it?” and when in fact, it’s like the most beautiful and like most unique out of the bunch. 

Amanda: Yeah. The only reason I got diagnosed at all, was because my wife really insisted on it when my stress level got to a point of no return when I returned to college after a couple of years of being out of college. I officially had three meetings with the psychiatrist, but she told me in the first meeting, she knew I was autistic. It was just required to have three meetings and go through the paperwork. Like, it was pretty obvious, and I don’t know how it was for you when you were diagnosed with ADHD, but I just got so much closure in that moment about my childhood, and just explained everything about me, and I just felt relief. Because, for once, I didn’t feel like anything was wrong with me. Like, I wasn’t the problem. I wasn’t stupid. Like, I was made to believe I was stupid for a really long time. I was, like, largely excluded from stem careers including veterinary medicine because I wasn’t diagnosed with autism. So, I didn’t get the academic support I needed. I didn’t know how my brain worked. I didn’t know how to study. So yeah, that really sucked. This wasn’t in the questions I sent you either, but how was it for you when you were finally diagnosed with ADHD? Would you say it was also kind of relief and closure? Or were you sad? Or? 

Asher: I guess it was a little bit of a mixture of the two. I was definitely a little bit relieved, because now I had a pinpoint of what I have. But, at the same time, I was also a little bit sad. Because, just going back to the idea of the Asian culture of normalcy”, or what we define as “normal”, or what Asian culture defines as “normal”; and just to be defined as, “not normal”, it definitely scared me and made me a little bit sad. Definitely gave me anxiety, whether or not to tell my parents or to tell my family that I do have this disability or this issue. But, I’ve been taking it sort of one step at a time and just been trying to process it. Also reading up and like researching as much as I can, on that topic. I’m still learning and. I feel like it’s definitely changed just, view on life.

Amanda: Yeah. When I told my mom and my sister, they weren’t surprised at all. They were like, “oh, yeah! This makes total sense!” My Mom had a lot more questions, and she wanted to know, “what does this mean?”, ” Are you in therapy for anything?”, And just basically if there was, like, treatment or a cure, and I’m like, “well, no, this is just how my brain is. That’s who I am.”. This is why I’d never like smoke detectors, or fire alarms, or bananas and why my sister’s choice of food always sucked, for me. It’s like my sister, who’s six years younger than me, she went through a phase where she only ate six foods. And, all of which I hated. It was really funny. there was this flavor of “RiceARoni” that was white cheddar and broccoli, where it smelled like vomit to me. I hated that so much! And, bananas! Both, my mom, my sister love bananas and I’ve talked so much on this podcast about how much I hate bananas! 

Asher: Is it the texture or the shape or what’s wrong with it? 

Amanda: It’s the texture and the smell. Like, I hate the smell, the texture is so mushy and gross and gets stuck in your mouth. And, yeah. So, now that everything makes sense to them now in that regard. I don’t know if this helps you, and I’m not Chinese obviously, but it made my relationship with them improve and they accepted it pretty readily. So, I’m not sure if that helps you or not, or reassures you. just when you’re ready, it might not be as bad as you think. Although maybe I shouldn’t say that. Probably shouldn’t say that! Every family is different. Never mind. Sorry, forget I said that!

Asher: It’s okay! I appreciate just the sentiment of it all. And, I believe that there is a time that I should tell them one day, sooner rather than later. it’s just really getting the courage to believe that, “this is who I am and there’s nothing wrong with it”. 

Amanda: My wife; I love her. I really don’t want to speak much on her childhood without talking to her first about this. But, what I will say is her own journey with her family; there were ups and downs because she has a Chinese mom and Chinese extended family. There are good points and there are times where they really do try to help their autistic and neurodivergent family members and they end up making it worse, in my opinion. Like, they try to shield them a lot. When anything about them comes out as different, their reaction is to shield and kind of minimize it rather than address it. I’m not sure if that helps you at all, but…

Asher: Yeah, no. I get it. I feel like the shielding part is definitely a big one. Whether it’s shielding them from the outside world or shielding other people from who they are. It’s the idea of, like, “saving face”. 

Amanda: Yeah, it is, yeah.

Asher: For, at least, Asian culture and Asian families and stuff like “saving face” has been a big thing. like you said it doesn’t really help that much. 

Amanda: So, autism actually runs in my wife’s mother’s family. So, they’ve known about neurodivergence in their family for a while, so that’s also been interesting to observe. But, they do have relatives that are fairly high needs, and there was this one incident where; a female member gave a back massage to a male member of the family and everyone got so pissed at this young woman. And, I’m like, ” She doesn’t know. You didn’t tell her. I’m not saying what she did was right. But, you didn’t tell her that’s inappropriate. You don’t really let her interact normally with people. You keep treating her like she’s not capable of learning, of course she doesn’t know better.”. That’s a commonality I’ve noticed with, like, American and Asian families; and this is probably true for all families out there with neurodivergent people. They expect us to know these invisible social rules that are never explicitly explained to us.

Asher: Exactly! Yeah! 

Amanda: And, it’s like we’re supposed to read minds and Adhere to all these specific cultural standards that are placed on us. And, then we’re yelled at when we don’t meet these expectations when we didn’t even know they existed initially, you know?

Asher: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of unspoken rules that feel like they need to be uplifted or not and are just like, “all right, what’s acceptable and what’s not?”. It feels strange to ask, and at the same time if you don’t ask, it’s just like, “alright, what am I supposed to do?”. 

Amanda: Yeah, exactly. My wife mentioned to me that a lot of neurodivergent people actually like religious settings a lot because there are clear social rules spelled out. But, I’m like, “what are you talking about? Higher ups disobey these rules all the time. You’re gonna get in trouble no matter what you do. There’s no reason to follow these rules because you’re gonna get in trouble anyways.”. I don’t know, that’s just my take on it.

Asher: I’m not sure about that. But, I definitely felt a little bit more safer in a religious setting. Just because, there’s not really any judgment in those settings. That there’s always gonna be other people from other backgrounds who are probably even worse off than you. They just treat each other the same way, which I was very appreciative of. 

Amanda: Was autism and other neurodivergent conditions ever discussed in school or family settings?

Asher: Not exactly. No. Just because of the fact that I only knew about autism and neurodivergence when I came here to the States. It was never really publicly discussed at all. There was discussion about, like, the elderly and just deteriorating health and stuff like that. But, never about autism or any other disabilities.

Amanda: I don’t remember if you said this previously in the conversation. But, if a classmate or a family member had autism or other neurodivergent conditions, do you remember how they were treated or how they’re treated now?

Asher: At least in public, from what I know, that they’re treated pretty normally, as far as I can tell. In Singapore, at least. People that I’ve seen that I think had autism or I wasn’t sure if they did or not. They were treated pretty normally. There were a lot of, like, helper and aids in families that had individuals that had autism. And, they were helped out with whatever needed to be done. Like, daily tasks or stuff like that. But, as far as I know, they were treated pretty normally.

Amanda: Do you remember what resources were available to them in Singapore? Or, is that not really discussed either?

Asher: Yes, there were definitely, like, schools for special needs and disability centers, at least from what I remember. They were called community centers in Singapore, where people who needed help with, like, whether it’s their low income, or have a disability, or need help with something or, need someone to help them sign a form or something like that. They could go to those locations and they would get the help they needed. I guess, as far as like, in schools and stuff there wasn’t ever really a special center. For the disabled or for neurodivergent as far as I know. Yeah, no, there wasn’t any kind of aid as far as I remember. This is a funny thing and also not very funny either. I guess they made up for it by having free dental care. That was the most I remember, when I was in primary school, in Singapore. They had a on-campus dentist that would call students in for, like, monthly checkups or stuff like that. 

Amanda: That’s interesting! A dentist at school! That actually sounds pretty awesome. I hope they’re nice, cause I did not like the dentist when I was a kid.

Asher: They’re okay. They, unexpectedly, pulled me into the office whenever I walked past. Which was a bit scary to me, I guess. But, they were nice, as far as I remember.

Amanda: That’s good. So, like in the schools that you went to, like, the primary school you went to, they don’t have any autism or neurodivergent resources. The kids were basically all just put in a different school then?

Asher: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, any kids that did have special needs, they would be placed in a different school. I went into the public school in Singapore and got thrown into the deep end as a kid. 

Amanda: It’s interesting that you say you were made fun of as an American. It’s not that I don’t believe you, I just thought that was interesting because Singapore is known for being this international hotspot, basically. Where a lot of countries actually send their kids there for the prestigious education system. So, I would just think there’d be a lot of international kids there. Like, British, American…

Asher: Probably in different schools. What I believe during the time was; that kids that came from, like, other countries who were well off, went to, like, more prestigious schools. 

Amanda: I see. Okay. That makes sense. 

Asher: I went into, like, a public school that was for Singaporeans and for Malaysians. And, I was pretty much the only American there.

Amanda: Oh! Okay, that makes sense! Okay. I don’t know, this might be a little off topic. But, at the time, did you have a Hong Kong, Cantonese, accent? Would you say that also kind of contributed to the bullying? Because, I’ve heard that accents can play a role in that as well.

Asher: I definitely had more of a Western accent. Just because I went to kindergarten and elementary school when I was in the States. So, I had the American accent. 

Amanda: Oh, I thought you said you were in Hong Kong before America, I’m sorry.

Asher: Oh, no. I went to Hong Kong every so often for vacation trips to meet relatives and stuff and I spoke Cantonese with them. 

Amanda: Okay, so you do have an American accent when you speak Cantonese, okay. My brother in law has that too when he speaks Cantonese and Mandarin and it’s just interesting hearing the accent difference between relatives. Like, it’s very distinctive. That sounds so minimal, but it’s so distinctive.

Asher: It is. It definitely is. 

Amanda: For number seven, what are some lessons Singapore and America can exchange with each other in terms of how autism and neurodivergence is treated in their respective societies?

Asher: That is the difficult one; just because of, like, Singapore’s laws and I don’t claim to know all the laws in Singapore. But, I would say; definitely in schools to provide either counseling and slash or a safe space for students with autism, or neurodivergence, or with a type of learning disability. Just give them, like, a space to go to, to talk to someone and to get resources to help them learn. Because, many of a time when I was in Singapore, as a kid and in school, we didn’t have special after school remedial lessons or anything like that. Those were provided by my parents and I feel so bad for all the tutors that I had to go through, while staying in Singapore. All the math teachers that I had to go to, to get help for lessons I was taking in school. Just lots of lessons that just didn’t stick in my brain because of that. So, to have that kind of resource to help with students, like myself, that were having difficulties with learning, or were having difficulties with keeping lessons in their mind. just to have that safe space to go to, to be like, “Hey, I’m having issues”, or “Hey, can you help me with this homework?”, Or “Hey, can you give me some skills to learn what I need to learn in today’s lesson?”. Which I don’t know, I feel like that would change quite a bit. Of the culture that goes on in the Singapore schooling system. Which isn’t a bad thing, but definitely to have those resources available for students who are having a more difficult time in studying. As for America; just treating people normally. Whether they’re unique, or whether they have autism, or whether they have neurodivergence; just treating them normally, just like in Singapore. Like you see all these different peoples of different backgrounds and cultures let alone if they have autism, or have a learning disability. People can just sit together in a hawker center, eat together, and You’re fine! You’re treated normally. That’s sort of like a wish of mine for the world and for a lot of people to just be able to sit down and have a meal with people without feeling pressured to act a certain way and just to be your true self.

Amanda: Word. And also, can we just add, let’s all eat at a Hawker Stand. I feel like hawker stands are like universal peace areas, if that makes sense. Because the food is so good. You don’t really care about all the differences around you anyways, right?

Asher: Exactly! 

Amanda: Unless, if there are like wild macaque monkeys that are trying to steal and like being jerks to you. That is like the only part of the hawker stand that would suck.

Asher: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean then that’s between you and the animal kingdom, but yeah! 

Amanda: I don’t know if I’m allowed to do PSA, but just know that the monkeys will get aggressive in Malaysia and Singapore if you try to feed them.

Asher: Oh yeah, for sure. There are lots of aggressive monkeys in Singapore. I’ve encountered a couple of them.

Amanda: Oh my god! Okay, I this is like super off topic, but you know the Batu Caves?

Asher: Oh, yes! 

Amanda: Okay, in the Batu Caves, when my wife and I were there with her family, there was actually like locals selling fruit to tourists, even though that is a terrible idea.

Asher: No, no. 

Amanda: Because the tourists think the monkeys are tame because they’re not terrified of you, and I’m like, that does not mean they’re tame. Those are two completely separate things, man. and I almost got attacked by a female monkey with a baby because some Australian tourist was like teasing the monkey; he was like doing this thing like dangling the fruit up and down. And for whatever reason, they decided to take their anger out on all the humans, and I had to get down to a crouching position with a camera in front of me, and that thankfully scared the monkey off. I was scared, though, like her teeth were boar at me.

Asher: They are scary! They hiss at you! I actually had a monkey hiss!

Amanda: I don’t think they’re tourist attractions, they just scare me. Primates in general kind of terrify me. Like, I’ve kind of said this before; if there’s a primate, especially a chimp that escapes from the zoo, I’m going to my car and just leaving the state. I’m like, nope, I’m out.

Asher: Oh yeah, no, it’s scary. 

Amanda: Chimps are terrifying. They’re like the most scary thing ever.

Asher: I didn’t know that chimps or monkeys could hiss at you. Like, I literally encountered that. I was like, “okay, nice to meet you too! I’m out!”.

Amanda: I don’t know if chimps hiss, but I know that monkeys can, definitely. Like, why? Why would you want to feed those things?! 

Asher: Let’s just find a place in the city. Whether, it’s food carts or like a hawker center with like lots of good food and just have that. 

Amanda: Or, let the monkeys just bother other tourists who are stupid enough to have shiny items out, like a camera, or a ring, or a phone. I think it’s hilarious! I’m a jerk a little bit, but I think it’s hilarious when people are stupid enough to leave their bags down on the ground unattended, in a nature park, and then the monkeys are, like, stealing their wallet and passport and stuff! I’m a jerk! But I think that’s hilarious.

Asher: I mean, you have to have your funny fix sooner or later, but. Yeah. 

Amanda: Like, dude, what are you expecting? They are not human, and they’re jerks. Anyways, I’m sorry. What did you want the audience to take away from this conversation?

Asher: Treat others with kindness. Everyone with kindness, I would say. No matter what circumstance, or what issue they’re going through; at the end of the day, kindness goes a long way. I feel like Singapore and America, individual countries, there’s a lot you can learn from each other. There is a lot that they can learn from each other. people can learn from each other just in general. Just listening to the backgrounds of people, and what they’ve gone through; whether it’s childhood, or whether they’ve grew up in another country, or stayed in a country. Gives like a full context of why they are who they are. I don’t know if that made sense at all, but yeah! Main point; ” kindness”, for sure.

Amanda: Nah, it made sense. What I want the audience to kind of hear is similar to what you just said. But, I also want to go back to the “saving face” thing. Because, I don’t think it’s just Asian cultures that do that. quite frankly, at least in my family, that definitely does happen too. I get it to a degree, I get that problems are hard to talk about. But, the more you ignore it and the more you rug sweep, the worse it’s gonna get and it’s not going to get better. So be open, be accepting. Even if conversations are difficult, sometimes to hear, they have to happen and it’s best just to listen.

Asher: Yeah.

Amanda: You don’t have to agree with the person you’re listening to, but you have to make them feel heard. At least that’s my take on it. Before we go there actually was, like, one other question I wish I had asked you, but I did not include these in the question. Is there any media portrayal of neurodivergence in Singapore, from what you can tell, or not? Because that came up a lot in the South Korean episode I did with a different guest, 

Asher: Maybe “Crazy Rich Asians” probably has.

Amanda: Oh, my god! That movie! 

Asher: Yeah, I was gonna say. I think that’s like the most well known movie that people could probably watch and maybe have an inkling of just the culture in general and just how people are treated in general.

Amanda: I don’t know, was there neurodivergence in that movie? 

Asher: I don’t remember, it was a while back.

Amanda: I just never understood why people said this was such a romantic movie. She’s being bullied by a bunch of rich people and the guy was too chicken to tell his family. He literally threw her into a shark tank.

Asher: Pretty much. 

Amanda: I don’t see, how is this romantic? How is this guy a good match for her? She could do way better than this! I will say Constance Wu and Michelle Yeoh, though, like those two actresses. It’s like you have those two actresses in a movie, you have perfection. There was a movie I watched recently on an overseas flight with my wife; “Anywhere and everywhere at once, I think. Do you know that one? 

Asher: Oh yeah, that’s a good one. Yep.

Amanda: Oh my god! Michelle Yeoh killed it! No matter what she’s in, it’s just perfection!

Asher: It’s really good. 

Amanda: I thought she made a great- And, it’s interesting to see her in like that evil mother in law role. Cause, I’m just used to her being the good guy. Constance Liu really worked really well, though, as the protagonist. Did you ever watch, “Fresh Off the Boat”?

Asher: Yes! “Fresh Off The Boat”, is another good one, too! 

Amanda: I know, “Fresh Off the Boat”, I actually thought was like, “okay, this is a really good way to explain my mother in law!”. You know the character Constance Wu plays in that show, actually? 

Asher: Oh, yes! 

Amanda: That is my mother in law almost down to a T! It’s really freaking funny! You wanna know who my mother in law is? Look at Constance Wu’s character. However, Constance Wu’s character is capable of apologizing.

Asher: She, yeah, she really is. She became a pretty good character later on, too. 

Amanda: I think it’s really interesting how it started off Eddie with the main character, but it’s shifted. That worked a lot better because Eddie, I liked Eddie okay, but he just wasn’t that interesting of a character. He was funny though. All the actors in that show were really well placed, and it’s really hilarious, too. Eddie’s character reminds me a lot of my brother in law and the younger boys actually remind me of my wife. Like, not individually, but the two together just remind me so much of my wife. I was just wondering if Neurodivergence had any kind of media representation in Singapore, but I love these shows we’re talking about too, though.

Asher: Yeah, no, they’re great shows. Media in general gives people the knowledge of just how to treat autism and neurodivergence. Which is good and also not good, like it’s a double edged sword, so to speak.

Amanda: In the episode I had with the other guests about South Korea. We talked about several different shows that American shows were based on, like “Good Doctor” was actually based on a Korean drama. Basically the idea was is that South Korea kind of portrays autism in that super savant form, if that makes sense? Where it’s like They’re supposedly promoting it or elevating it. But, the reality is it’s like they’re presenting this really strict idea in really narrow scope of what autism might be and it’s not even accurate. But, it also appeals to international audiences. So, that’s pretty brilliant, I gotta say, on South Korea’s part. Gotta say that’s pretty ingenious. Sorry, going back to “Fresh Off the Boat”. This is a great show and I just remember learning a lot about Chinese culture in general and just having a lot of good conversations with my mother in law about it. I remember this one episode; Eddie tried to introduce his girlfriend, who was white. But, a Chinese girl showed up to the house with a bag of oranges.

Asher: Ohhh! 

Amanda: I asked my mother in law, like, “what is with the oranges?”, And she’s like, “it’s supposed to represent gold.”.

Asher: Yeah, pretty much! 

Amanda: Like, that’s great. I love stuff like that! 

Asher: yeah, there’s a lot of auspicious stuff when it comes to, like, giving gifts. Especially in Chinese culture. 

Amanda: Oh, I don’t give any gifts to my in-laws, unless, if it has my mother-in-law’s approval. Like, I do love her. She and I are very different people, but I never do anything without her approval when it comes to them.

Asher: Oh, yeah! You need a lot of knowledge to know what to give to people. Even the amount of money! 

Amanda: Oh, yeah, whatever she tells me to give, I just do it. I don’t even question it. I don’t care how much it is!

Asher: Yeah. Definitely, don’t want to have like four or something in there because that’s bad.

Amanda: Oh, god! The “four thing”! Oh, the “four thing”! 

Asher: Asian people, you guys know what I’m talking about!

Amanda: Okay, I’m gonna make you laugh your butt off right now. The last Chinese New Year’s, my mom came over, and my mother in law was explaining what bad numbers are with my mom, and she said “464”.

Asher: Oh!~

Amanda: My mom did not get it. But, I was laughing my butt off because I knew exactly. She didn’t, like, give my mom, like, a four anything with “464”. But, she was explaining to my mom why you never would do that you would never do that. 

Asher: Oh, okay, yeah. 

Amanda: No, no. She loves my mom, actually. But, it’s, like, just really funny. 

Asher: That is funny. Yeah, no, that’s a very big “no-no” number. 

Amanda: Yeah! Like, would you say, like, there’s a worse number in Chinese culture not? 

Asher: Three sixes is pretty bad.

Amanda: I know, but not as bad as four. Not nearly as bad as four.

Asher: Not nearly as bad as four, no. But four is definitely like the big, big no no number. For sure. In any kind of setting. That’s why a lot of buildings in Asia; they don’t have level four or anything like that.

Amanda: Yeah, they don’t, no. no. That was the hotel in Malaysia as well, actually. They did not have a fourth floor. And it’s the same thing with American buildings a lot too, where we don’t have a 13th floor a lot of times too.

Asher: Oh yeah, the 13th floor.

Amanda: I don’t think we’re nearly as suspicious about it and I don’t think it’s nearly as funny in conversations like that, though.

Asher: No, no, yeah. I do know that the number “eight” is, like, a lucky number.

Amanda: yeah, yeah, it was “eight” and, I wanna say “nine” as well. 

Asher: “Nine”, yeah. 

Amanda: “Eight” and “nine” are like the really good ones, right? 

Asher: Yeah, And “three” as well. 

Amanda: I forget what the rules are with double digits, though, I know that anything ending in four is bad.

Asher: Anything ending with four is bad. Although, I’ve never really heard of the idea of, like, having “48”. Because, you get a negative and you have a positive, does that just make it straight? 

Amanda: Like, I don’t know. Does that mean it’s, like, evened out? I still would never give a relative anything with four in it, whether it’s a starting or ending with it. I’m just never crossing that territory. I don’t want to risk, like, making my mother in law look bad too, especially because there’s such a big language barrier with her family. And I actually really do respect my mother in law a lot for just making sure things go smoothly. Like the first time I met her family in Malaysia was; we went there for a family wedding and a tea ceremony for me and my wife, and we did some kind of like, it was like a different celebration. But, it involved this soup that was like really sweet with like tapioca balls in it.

Asher: Oh, it’s like a dessert!

Amanda: yeah. It was like special seasonal dessert that you only have like for celebrations. I forget what it’s called though. But, the thing is, I hate tapioca balls, so it’s like the problem was, the second aunt gave me it. So, this is the woman who’s above my mother in law’s mother, because she’s the third aunt.

Asher: Oh no…

Amanda: So, I’m like, “oh, crap.”. 

Asher: Put it to the side! You’ll be fine! 

Amanda: Oh, no! I did drink it, and it was a very painful smile. I did do it. I did swallow the tapioca ball and I smiled and when she turned away I just gave it to my wife and just made a bunch of gross faces on my face, making sure she was turned away from it. See, I’m capable of “peopling”, I’m capable. I just knew I was screwed there. Because she did not speak a word of English, I didn’t speak a word of Cantonese. there was absolutely no freaking way…

Asher: I Just smiled at you and probably just said like, “Oh, eat more!”, Or something. That’s probably- 

Amanda: Didn’t even do that. just gave me the kind grandma smile. But, at that point I knew what the hierarchy was with the women, obviously. So, I knew I couldn’t say “no”.

Asher: Yeah.

Amanda: I knew what the hierarchy was, I was screwed. I even met, like, the first aunt, too, she actually seemed really nice. Like, she was actually pretty easy going compared to my mother in law. It was actually really funny. I thought, like, all the really important people were actually more easy going than my mother-in-law.

Asher: That’s good. That’s nice. I have so many relatives I can’t even remember how to call them correctly, let alone in Cantonese, honestly! 

Amanda: I just know that the older someone is, the more authority they have. Again, I still don’t speak a word of Cantonese, sadly, but I just do whatever my mother in law says. That’s just my default mode when I interact with her family. With the older members of her family, I’m just doing what you say. If you have time, I have a hilarious travel story involving whiskey.

Asher: Oh, I definitely have time. 

Amanda: I want to also give you some context. This is my first time out of the U.S.. Period. So, this is my first time leaving the U.S.. I did have a passport. Because we were initially going to go to Canada for a different trip when I was younger, but that never ended up happening, so I did have a passport. This is the first time I’m meeting my mother in law’s family, so she was like, picking out outfits, making sure I had the right dresses and everything. But, the thing that was like tipping me over the edge with her control was these three whiskey bottles that we were supposed to bring to a wedding because as you know in Malaysia there’s Sharia law and it’s pretty unsafe to trust the booze there. Anyway, she told me to like pack one of the whiskey bottles in the suitcase and I’m like, “no, it might break. It might get all over my clothes and it’s like I don’t even drink anyway. Mother-in-law just pack it in your bag.”. At the time, she just kept pushing and she didn’t tell me why and eventually, I forget if I found this out later after we got there, but basically there’s like a one person limit per bottle of whiskey, or a bottle of alcohol or something. anyways, she was freaking me out because she kept saying, “do not make eye contact with the security!” 

Asher: [Laughter]

Amanda: I was freaking out! I’m like, “my god…” 

Asher: doing something illegal, yeah, no, you’re doing something illegal. 

Amanda: I knew that Malaysia was Sharia law and she had told me you can’t really expose too much skin, yada yada. So, I already knew that alcohol was mostly a “no no” there, or like half a “no no”. But, I don’t know. I just know that alcohol was kind of on the borderline there.

Asher: Yeah. 

Amanda: So, I was really scared I was going to get arrested in Malaysia. So, my first experience going to another country was me freaking out for over 12 hours thinking I was gonna get arrested.

Asher: No, I mean, the most that they’ll do is just fine you, honestly.

Amanda: I flat out told my mother in law and my wife, if I get questioned by airport security or like border control or whatever, I’m throwing you guys under the bus. I did not even want to bring- oh no! I flat out told them, no, I didn’t even want to bring the stupid alcohol! I’m not kidding! I’m not lying! I don’t drink! I was worried it was gonna get all over my clothes initially. Because, I was worried the glass bottle would break in that stupid plane. I’m like, “oh no! If I get arrested, I’m selling you guys down the river! Nope! Not happening!”

Asher: Yeah, no, you wouldn’t get arrested, at least from what I know that you would just get fined. 

Amanda: Yeah, they’ll just either find me or take the one of the two. 

Asher: One of the two, yeah, exactly. 

Amanda: I wanted them to take the whiskey, honestly. No, I’m petty, I would have wanted them to take the whiskey. In fact, “here, you want this? I’ll pay the fine and you can have it! This is my mother in law’s fault! I didn’t even want to bring this stupid thing!” My mother in law and my wife get really annoyed at me with that story because I keep saying the word smuggling.

Asher: Oh!

Amanda: We weren’t smuggling, to be clear. But, I always like to describe it as that. Because, we really were being so covert about it. Like, just hidden under our clothes. It was, like, we I couldn’t talk to anyone. I don’t make contact. It was really funny when we got there. airport security literally just looked at me and they said, “okay, you guys are good.”.

Asher: [Laughter]

Amanda: Apparently, I’m like the most harmless looking white woman ever!

Asher: I mean, maybe if you were a guy that would be different, but… 

Amanda: I don’t know. I’m not a quiet person as you know, and I very clearly have an American accent. So, I don’t know, maybe that’s what got us through. I don’t know. So, that brings us to end to our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Asher. I hope you have a great day.

Asher: Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Amanda: Thank you for listening to today’s episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation between Asher and I in discussing different aspects of growing up neurodivergent. We went through public school systems that failed to meet our education or emotional needs with neither of us diagnosed as children. Whether it was for saving face or other cultural reasons, autism and neurodivergence as a whole is acknowledged in Singapore but is generally not discussed outside of designated spaces. In America, I feel as though disability culture is frequently discussed but we are disregarded as invalid when we try to advocate for our needs. Overall, I enjoyed the conversation with Asher today and I hope you listened to her message in practicing empathy and listening to people’s stories. Thank you for listening and be sure to tune in for the next episode.