Portland Community College | Portland, Oregon

Let’s Talk! Autism in Women and People Raised as Women. Pt. 1

Student Advocates | Start the discussion

Hosted and produced by Amanda Antell. Produced and edited by Carrie Cantrell. Transcriptions authored by Eugene Holden. Amanda, Katy and Silver compare traits of autism and ADHD in women/people raised as women and share how their ADHD and Autism affected their childhood and family dynamics.

You can also listen to this episode on Spotify.

Transcript

Carrie: Hello. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of “Let’s Talk,” PCC’s podcast about disability culture produced and created by students at PCC. This episode we are introducing Amanda Antell who is producing the series “Let’s Talk Autism,” a continuing exploration into the experiences of the neurodivergent community. Let’s listen now.

Amanda: My name is Amanda and I’m starting the series “Let’s Talk Autism” under the “Let’s Talk” podcast. This series will focus on a variety of topics concerning the autistic community, giving people the opportunity to speak out on their experiences, and to answer questions the public may have. This talk is autism versus ADHD in women and people raised as women talk one, where I will be discussing this with Silver Fox and Katy Gorevin. So first of all, thank you both for joining me today to discuss both your autism and ADHD. I hope we have a good conversation and we have fun with this. So first, start by introducing yourselves. Can you guys give your names, your preferred pronouns, major, or occupation, and which condition you have: autism, ADHD, or both, and your date of diagnosis. And please feel free to ask if that was way too much information one in one go.

Silver: I’m Silver, and I use they them pronouns. I’m a stripper for work and my major is Russian. I was diagnosed with ADHD in 2018. I am still working on trying to get an autism diagnosis.

Katy: My name is Katy, and I am dual enrolled at PCC and Oregon State. I’m actually finishing up this term. I go by she her pronouns. For work, I’ve been a developer for 16 years, and I’m just about to apply to physician assistant school this April. For my major I did psychology and a minor in anthropology. And I got my ADHD diagnosis when I first tried going to PCC and working for Patricia or working with Patricia, I think that was like 2017.

Amanda: Thank you. If you were to define your conditions, how would you define it? Like, how would you define your autism or your ADHD respectively?

Silver: I think I would define my ADHD as really distracted all the time. I can’t focus and I would describe my autism as the girl version, even though I don’t really like that word. I could talk forever about it probably.

Katy: Are you good Silver? I didn’t want to interrupt you at all. I also feel like I could talk forever about this. So the way I would describe my ADHD, and I feel like I can do this because I just had an intake with a new therapist yesterday, so I’m somewhat in the mindset. But I think mine is more like really repetitive thought. I’m really productive with my work, and I like that about my ADHD. I just have to learn how to not say the things that come to mind, which I’ve gotten much better at over the years. But I’m still kind of plagued by kind of like never ending repetitive thoughts, and it’s kind of always conflicts that I’m playing out in my head, or something. I called it like Barbies when I was a little kid before I knew what to say. But yeah, that can sometimes like, take over my day and overwhelm me, and just emotions in general are intense. So yeah, that would be me.

Amanda: And I’ll just give a brief rundown of how I describe my autism, just to kind of compare it to the ADHD side. So it kind of is similar to what Katy described where the sense that I do kind of have repetitive thoughts. But in contrast to ADHD, I feel like autism gets into like this really intense focus mode where it’s like, I can’t focus on anything else but that one task. So it’s like, I’ll run myself ragged, just getting something done, where it’s like, I have a lot of trouble multitasking if I’m trying to do something very specific. Like for example, if I’m trying to listen to an online lecture, I cannot multitask on anything else, even when the professor is going on a tangent about, I don’t know, a story from childhood or something. So that’s interesting. So that’s some interesting similarity and difference I heard from both of you. With that in mind, what led to your diagnoses? What specific like, were there signs and symptoms that you both noticed, or the people around you noticed?

Silver: When I got diagnosed with ADHD it was because I was going to the doc for, like, I’m really stressed out and everything is terrible and I live in a trailer in the woods. And she was like, are you a perfectionist? And I’m like, well yes. And oh, can you handle change? And I’m like, well, I kind of hate it. And she’s like, what if your anxiety and depression comes from being an unmedicated ADHD person? And I was like, well I’d never heard of that before. I thought I was just autistic. Yeah, ADHD was never really on my radar because I also thought that was like something that, you know, we grew up here in America, that’s only a thing boys have. So with the autism, I suspected I had that way back in like 2013 because I’m really sensitive to sounds, smells, lights, tastes, and textures. I’m really specific about what clothes I can wear, like, what feels good on my skin, and what food tastes good and feels good in my mouth. And I can’t handle certain music because if it’s too high pitch, or too repetitive, and I really like low heavy bass, it is kind of weird. People were like Silver, your choice and music is weird. Why don’t you just listen to music? And I’m really super interested in some things. Like I’ve got this special interesting going on. And it’s like nothing else matters, except the things that I’m interested in. And people were always like, you’re rude. And I’m like, why is this rude though? And look at me in the eyes, and I don’t want to. And yeah, I love my comfort media also. And so yeah it was like 2013, I was reading some articles, and I was like, wait a second, this is a thing? Oh, the stimming also. I think I’ll stop there.

Katy: I really loved your description, Silver. I would like to say that, it was kind of funny, it was probably illegal at the time, probably still is, but I had a boss who was my first dentist I ever worked for. And, in my defense, we were doing the world’s most boring online training, like for a day. And I think he caught me playing Mahjong or something like that. And they basically said, if I didn’t get on meds, he would fire me. And that was what I took to my doctor and she prescribed me things. And then basically, from then on, it was a thing and it worked. And it was kind of a strange way to get me in that. And then in 2017, when I moved to Portland, that’s like the first time I ever even reached out to Disability Services or anything like that in my life. And then I was able to get like subsequently diagnosed and all that jazz. And then I will say that it was totally evident in my childhood. I was kind of a bad kid, and I was like a bad daughter. I didn’t really get in trouble with anyone besides like my family, per se. Our family life was kind of, in some ways built around constraining me a little bit and the way that the ADHD worked. Like we had a lock on the television, and we weren’t allowed to listen to any media really, or anything, or any like non-religious tech. And like I had rules that didn’t apply to Loretta, my sister. And so it was just a really interesting childhood where like, when I look back, all the signs and symptoms were there, but they all just usually had punishment associated with them. And so yeah, I don’t know, that’s my little experience. And I also want to say too, as Silver was saying all of these stimming things. And I also just recently took these like high risk profile tests for addictive class I’m taking and I was just like, I was wicked high risk for everything because I have all these impulsive things. Like I’ve been a skin picker since I can remember. Definitely had some kleptomania. Like, still, I’m probably like a classic and went down that road hard. I’ve just been better at repressing it now. I’ve done a lot of drugs, and all at early ages, like 15 and stuff. And so I’m proud of me for where I’m at. But also it all fits the profile quite interestingly well. So, that is me.

Amanda: Thank you both for sharing those stories. First of all, both of your stories are super powerful. And that gave you both credit. And I have massive respect for the fact that both of you got to where you are and that you’re independent and that essentially you’re taking care of yourselves. Anyone who ever criticizes you or tries to tell you different, don’t listen to them. In terms of how I was diagnosed, the idea of autism was actually first brought up by my mother-in-law because autism ran in her family. And looking back on my childhood, I basically had a lot of symptoms of high-functioning autism, but my mom was never given the proper diagnosis because, kind of like ADHD, both you and Silver said, it was thought that it just did not happen in girls in the 90s. And even if it did, it was very rare and very severe. So I was just basically considered too normal to really be autistic. So that led me to not being diagnosed until 2021 actually. So my diagnosis is very recent. And it’s also an interesting similarity to me that we’re all adult people and we all got diagnosed basically outside of our childhoods, because we just didn’t fit the profile, or there was other stigmas surrounding us that just didn’t allow us to get the help we needed. So that’s just interesting to me in my perspective. Go ahead, Katy.

Katy: I didn’t realize until I was older how hard I worked to be normal as a kid. And that kept me totally below the radar because I didn’t really struggle in school in ways that other classic ADHD students were because I had so many self-taught things like memorization and whatnot. And I didn’t realize that like you weren’t supposed to switch numbers in your head before you did math and then switch it back. So things were exhausting to me. And so I’m just curious if there was something about being a girl, or at least being raised with that gender, of shut up and make it happen that maybe kind of helped keep us even more below the radar because we just were kind of struggling to be normal. And we kind of accomplished it so well, that I don’t know, does that resonate with anyone?

Silver: Well, I’m kind of the opposite. I grew up as a feral kid and I thought that the people who were trying to be normal were dumb. And I thought normal was dumb. And my dad was on my side and I think he’s undiagnosed ADHD. And I think my mom was undiagnosed autistic. Yeah, my dad was like, all these other kids are weird and dumb, and being normal is dumb, and you’re cool, Silver, my child. And I support you and everything that you do, and I’m like, okay, but I’m still being bullied relentlessly in school. So yeah, I thought masking was about like trying to be normal. And then I read another article this summer by Devon Price, who’s a really cool author. So I turned into a hyper aggressive, like, I’m wearing the spikes, and I’m wearing the leather and you are not going to get close to me. And that was my mask to protect myself from the normies. Like, I’d play sports, I played in the mud, I liked dogs, and I liked cars. So I got a lot of internal misogyny too. Like, I wanted to be one of the boys, and they were at least bullied less than girls were bullied.

Amanda: So to answer Katy’s question, I think it’s actually I think it’s true. We all adapted differently, in my opinion, obviously. But Silver mentioned stimming, which I do. But my stimming is a lot more subtle though, a lot more subtle than a lot of people that are autistic. I use hand gestures to kind of keep myself on track. And I always worry that people think I’m trying to sign when I’m really not, I’m just trying to keep myself on track and just trying to regulate myself. Another obvious sign I had autism was just the fact that I got so bored by normal conversations that I would just wander off. I wasn’t even offended that I was excluded, I was just bored. And I’m like, why am I here? That was kind of my attitude as a kid: why am I here? But I was bullied relentlessly like Silver. In fact, I kind of developed issues socializing with people because of that. And I find it difficult to reach out to people because of that just outside of work and outside of school, because I’m always like, okay, I’m gonna bother someone. I was raised neurotypical, even though I’ve not because I just my mom just did not get the help she needed when raising me, because I just wasn’t diagnosed when I should have been. So I picked up a lot of interesting adaptations. Like, I’m very good at reading behavior because I pick up on patterns, people do that they don’t even realize that they do themselves. Like one thing I’m good at is actually identifying other neurodivergent people, because a lot of neurodivergent people, I’m not sure if you guys do this, either, they actually do use their hands to just to kind of keep themselves on track. And they don’t really realize it. And I also can tell when people get angry in conversations, because they either sometimes change the subject or there’s like a slight inflection in their voice. That’s not always truly the case. But again, I wouldn’t say I get social cues all the time, but I do look for patterns like that. And on that note, I think both of you answered this already, but what would you say are your most prominent ADHD and autism symptoms?

Katy: For me, mine is definitely just kind of unresolved conflict. I can’t stop thinking about it all day for like months at a time. And it is very obsessive in a way that I can’t stop. So there’s some kind of impulse thing. And other than that, I just get really talkative, overly talkative. So those are probably my biggest ones. And emotional dysregulation, which I have a lot of really good tools now so it’s not as bad. But I would say that if I wasn’t utilizing those tools, that would be a disaster. Also just like not moving. There’s days where I just can’t move, and I also don’t want to take my meds days. So, yeah.

Silver: I think it’s all the physical stuff like how I operate in the world with my body, that was the most prominent, since I’m interpreting prominence as like what other people have noticed. And people don’t really notice what’s going on in my brain, like the things that I think about or like my feelings, but they do notice I can’t stop touching the book corner pages and just like running that through my fingers, just pages on my fingertips. Book pages, book pages, book pages, or the fingernail clicking, or the touching my hair constantly. I can’t sit still either. And then, like I said before, with the food and the music, I also used to do the dinosaur walk and my mom would bully me about that. I still walk on my toes, but with the with the arms is less nowadays. And then as a dancer, I can do other things when I’m at work that hide it. So it’s harder to tell that I’m weird, maybe, I don’t know. Maybe people do see that.

Amanda: First of all, I don’t think either of you are weird. And maybe I’m weird. Or maybe I’m not weird. But I don’t know, to me, both of you are just doing what you have to regulate yourself. And you’re just doin’ what you do to live life. So to me, I just wouldn’t feel bad about that. At least that’s my two cents on that comment. For me, my most prominent, and again, for the sake of comparing like with autism, it’s like, my most prominent symptoms are the fact that I do get intensely focused on things. Like that is just such a prime autistic thing I can’t even tell you. Like my special interest is animals. And if my wife or someone doesn’t cut me off, in terms of like talking about animals, I will bore someone to death for hours. I feel very bad for whoever gets stuck in a conversation with me about animals. The other biggest signs with autism for me is the fact that I do not respond well to sudden changes with assignments or work expectations. Like, say you’re doing the report and the teacher one day was like, okay, I want you to add like three other sources to your paper for whatever reason; I hate that. And I do have taste sensitivities and sound sensitivities as well. And some clothing sensitivities like: I hate velvet, I cannot stand velvet, and I can’t wear turtlenecks because I feel like I’m being choked. I hate bananas with every fiber of my being. I could never have liked them. My mom has stories of me just like hitting spoons out of her hand when I was like a toddler because I hated bananas that much. And it was just weird to her, because like bananas are supposed to be a dessert for kids. And I’m like, no, I hate those. And then I definitely have sound sensitivities. Like my biggest issues are fire alarms and smoke detectors. Like when I was in elementary school, and we’d have those stupid fire drills. I’d be like this the whole day because they don’t tell you when exactly the fire drills are, for whatever reason. I don’t know why they don’t tell you. But I would just be like in the fetal position and people would just think I was being overdramatic. I don’t know why they thought that was helpful to say that I was overreacting, but they did. So yeah, lots of fun tidbits throughout my childhood as well.

Katy: I was just so excited to hear how much you hated bananas, because I would die on the island that only has bananas before I ate one. Everything about it: the flavor, the texture, and the consistency. I can do Runts. I can do like Laffy Taffy banana, and anything closer than that is just truly the devil in every way. And so I really appreciated that that you had that too.

Amanda: I don’t get why people like them. It’s like they’re so gross and mushy and they just get stuck in your mouth everywhere. It’s disgusting.

Katy: I could not agree with you more. And I also was the kid whose mom was shoving raspberries down my throat and I was like gagging and crying and hyperventilating, and she’s like, what is wrong with you? I really appreciate that we’re having that conversation. I have a huge smile in my face.

Amanda: I feel like just so many people like a certain thing like bananas. Like it’s just so ubiquitous throughout society that it’s like, how can you not like this? It’s delicious. And I’m like, it’s disgusting. Like my mother-in-law, she and I usually get along pretty well. But recently, I want to say like two weeks or weekends ago or something like that, for whatever reason she like made a banana custard or like banana cream pie or something. I forgot exactly what it was. But she was sad I didn’t eat any, and I’m like, Lisa, you’ve known me for over a decade, I’m not eating that. And I don’t think it was her being passive aggressive towards me, it was actually just more like her older sister made a banana cream pie and she gets super competitive with her, so she had made the banana cream pie just for clarification.

Katy: I would also like to say that just once in my entire life I tried to get over my banana thing. And I did try and eat a bite of banana cream pie, which was from Marie Callender’s. I remember this completely. In that bite of banana cream pie, which was a really big deal for me, was an earwig. So I am done forever. Always. I’m good.

Amanda: Well if it makes you feel me better Katy, [unclear] flies actually bury themselves in bananas actually, because the peels actually are the perfect insulation for them. So every time someone eats a banana, they actually eat a bunch of fly eggs. They do not like it when I point that out. So with our sensitivities in mind, how would you say your autistic and ADHD symptoms differ from the stereotype? Like I know I’ve we kind of talked a lot about our symptoms and our triggers already. But when I say the stereotype I feel like both autism and ADHD is kind of just thought of in boys, like in a very specific way. So how would you say that your symptoms differ from like the symptoms that we know in men? And if you guys don’t know enough about men, I can kind of talk about a little bit about myself with my autism and how it usually differs from men. And when I say men, I mean, people who identify as men and are biologically raised as men, maybe, I don’t know if that was necessary to clarify, but maybe I should.

Silver: I’ve got some notes that I was giving to my dad on this subject. So like with autism, the special interests that boys usually have are considered odd and that girls are considered typical. Like, my obsession with wolves was kind of long, bordering odd, but a little more general. And so that was like, okay, you like wolves? That’s a thing that girls do with animals. So like, that’s fine, you’re fine. And then what else is in here? Imaginations: so they would say the typical thing for boys is being inactive and girls is having really active imaginations. So I was always the one to come up with games that me and my brother and my cousins would play. And I played with my Beanie Babies and had built a whole world for them. And so it was like, oh, you have an imagination? Autistic kids don’t, so you can’t be autistic. It’s like, okay, thanks guys. And I would say that boys are typically nonverbal and girls are like hyperlexic and voracious readers and boys aren’t supposed to like be interested in reading. And I did read a lot. I don’t think I was hyperlexic as a kid though. Girls may learn to pretend to be good at social interactions and boys can’t do that. That’s where I fit in with the boys is I could never really learn and learn how to do the social interactions correctly. But it also says here, girls may be extra shy or avoidant, which I did do that I was very shy and avoidant. Girls might have one or two close friends and are often victims of bullies. And yeah, I did fit in with that.

Katy: I really appreciate that; it was a good list. I kind of took notes. It’s funny because I’m also kind of confused sometimes too by my ADHD because like, I guess unlike both of you guys, I think it was kind of the talkative nature, I always had friends. It was kind of something that I was never lacking. Like, I could be in a room for 10 minutes and the person that I was sitting next to, I was just like, okay, we’re gonna be friends. I never really had any, like, social issues on that part. I also don’t recall ever being bullied, which is, I don’t know, I kind of feel guilty for that, because I’m not really sure like how I skated by. But it was like a really big goal of mine to always be normal. And as much as I could, go unnoticed. I remember there was that scene for the Princess Diaries of her being invisible. And I’m like, literally, that was my goal. And I was quite good at it. And so I would put myself through whatever discomfort in order to just kind of appease that situation. Maybe it was like quote on quote successful in the way that I like wasn’t targeted. But I will also say that like childhood was really frustrating for me. I don’t know, I think a boy would be more like excusable for their actions at home. I think I was like more punished. And then once I got older, I had a lot of like, risky behaviors. I had basically every risky behavior you could imagine like cigarette smoking, sex at an early age, drugs, like drinking, the whole jam. And I think that I probably got a lot more socially judged because I’m a girl versus a boy in that situation. And I still think that will always kind of be the case. And so I think that there’s a lot of like, gender juxtapositions on things. And so I think that being a girl having that impulsivity, and emotional dysregulation and stuff like that, I think I got a lot more socially judged than a boy would. That’s how I would describe it.

Silver: Yeah, boys would get a pass for being aggressive, but I would get punished. It’s like, come on, guys. Really?

Amanda: And that’s not unusual. Like my like, the way my symptoms manifest is basically what Silva said. But I do find it very interesting that autism and ADHD are just assumed that it primarily still happens in boys. In fact, there’s actually still practitioners out there that believe that both of these conditions just do not happen in women; they just do not believe it. Or in even people raised as women. And there’s a lot of old research that they’re basing that off of which is pretty bad, but that is what it is. And we don’t listen to practitioners like that for that reason. But anyways, the primary reason why it was just identified in boys for the longest period of time is because, first of all, all those previous studies were done on boys, specifically white boys not even people of color. So because of that, the stereotypes about autism and ADHD developed. But more recently practitioners and researchers have discovered that it’s not that girls do not have the symptoms, obviously, because we do, it’s that we are trained to just act a certain way. We learn from our aunts, we learn from our moms, we learn from our older sisters, we learn from cousins. We are trained to essentially control ourselves because it’s like we’re supposed to be more demure, we’re supposed to be more controlled, we’re supposed to just essentially keep our heads on straight during a crisis. Which is kind of funny to me, because it’s like, women are accused of being too emotional compared to men a lot of times, and we’re dismissed a lot of times because of that. But at the same time, we’re expected to just kind of keep everything to ourselves anyways. So that’s kind of where these attitudes that both of you kind of grew up with, kind of come from, and that’s why I wasn’t diagnosed like I should have been, because I didn’t fit the profile. And both of you were subjected to just the social norms that were based on patriarchy. So whether or not you’re at work or in school, how would you say your fellow employees, employers, or instructors treat your ADHD and autism? This is a pretty open ended question I realize. So whatever both of you are comfortable answering, go for it.

Katy: I would say, I think I did this by design, I knew which jobs would work for me and I knew which jobs wouldn’t. And I think that I need to give myself a lot more credit than I do, of being like, you know what, let’s not fight the flow here. But as a dental assistant, and as kind of a medical practitioner, like I’m working as a behavior specialist right now, my ADHD has kind of been, it makes me really good at my job. Usually it’s like, you bring someone back, you don’t really want this like, quiet, awkward person to not talk with you in this moment of anxiety and discomfort, and you’re kind of like, ooh, what’s gonna happen, or what’s this medical procedure, or I’m not comfortable in this situation. And so to have someone like me who’s just chatty Cathy, and can just kind of like la da da while being really good at reading people kind of serves me better than anything else. And my wild imagination works really well with my five year old client with the behavior stuff. And also, it works well, too because the way the job works, there’s like, big spurts of moving around and that kind of works for my energy. And then there’ll be like a couple hours of sitting down in a procedure and doing stuff, you know. So it kind of worked for me. And so it kind of brings out the best, I’d say. And so my work doesn’t really have to accommodate me. I wouldn’t really even bring it up if it wasn’t for like, oh this is beneficial, because I don’t know. Working at a corporation: worst thing ever. I can’t handle it, I can’t do it. I get angry just thinking about it right now. So it definitely is job specific.

Silver: As a dancer, I noticed that a lot of strippers are not normal in some way, like disabled in some way or another, or queer in some way or another. But customers want us all to be normal and super hot and super friendly and super interesting. And so sometimes, it’s like, of course you’ve got your particular way that you wear clothes and listen to music and move on stage. But then other times, it’s like, why can’t you just be normal, Silver, why? And when I’m on stage, I can do a performance and really feel myself and when I’m off stage. Like when I’m supposed to be hustling people I just kind of sit awkwardly in a corner of the bar, like oh my god, everything is overwhelming again and I don’t know how to talk to people. And then some people have accused me of thinking I’m better than everyone else or thinking that I’m like aloof or standoffish or mean or something. And I’m really just terrified. Like, I can’t work night shifts on the weekends, because they’re overwhelming to me. And it goes into the whole, well you’ve got titties, you can’t be autistic or disabled or whatever. And I’m like, well that’s just like your opinion, man. So yeah, people look at me and go the way you are on stage and also you’re hot, so why can’t you just make a ton of money on weekend nights? And I’m like, well, because I just can’t I just can’t. But as a dancer I don’t get like worker’s rights. I also don’t get like accommodations. So I get to make my own schedule, which is really good. Like a lot of people who are disabled get into like sex work because we have way more freedom for making our own schedules. And like where we work, especially in Portland, there’s more than 50 clubs in Portland. And we don’t have to like pee in a cup to get the privilege of working, like no drug tests as a dancer. We don’t have to fill out time off requests, and like, I can’t predict if I’m going to have any kind of breakdowns, you know, so I don’t have to worry about getting fired for not coming in, except maybe sometimes. There are some clubs where if you call them and say I’m having a problem I can’t come in, they might just not let you get back on the schedule. But there are other clubs that aren’t like that. And school, I’ve always been a good student and it’s hard for me to know what kind of accommodations to ask for. But like, I really need more time to get stuff done. And in times when it’s like a condensed winter term on 10 weeks, like I don’t have extra time to do stuff, and it’s really overwhelming. I don’t think very many instructors know how to deal with the psychological disabilities, compared to physical disabilities.

Amanda: Again, I really applaud both of you for just adapting to your work environments and making it work for you. Do not ever shortchange yourselves on credit there. As people with autism and ADHD, we have to come up with our own adaptations and our own ways of survival. So on that note, would you say that you don’t disclose to your employers that you have autism or ADHD? Or would you say that you do disclose? Whether it’s yes or no, why or why not?

Silver: The less the club owner knows about my personal self, the better. So I never disclose to like club owners. And back when I worked a real job in a factory I didn’t know, so there was nothing to disclose. I think if I were to get another wage job, I would tell them on the basis of if you fuck with me then it’s your ass on the line. But if I was really desperate for money, I might not because I wouldn’t want them to, like, have any reason to fire me because I know that even though regular jobs have worker’s rights on paper, it’s not really true in reality.

Katy: So I would go with no; I would never disclose it just because, again, like the less they know about me. I think it goes totally hand in hand with Silver. Like, things that exist on paper do not necessarily exist in real life. And even if they do, I don’t have the time and the patience and a savings account to get through it. And I also don’t want to mess with my resume and have like gaps. So no, I keep that to myself. However, since I started working at PCC, I’ve almost been forced to disclose it, but not in a bad way. So, because I was the vice president with Delta Alpha Pi, that is an honor society at PCC, if I say disability Honor Society, there I am. Like, cat’s kind of out of the bag. And so kind of by putting that out there and being like, look what I did, now I’m this disability advocate, and then I’m involved in it. And if I kind of want to get any credit, for that, I kind of have to acknowledge it. And then, I know this is gonna sound terrible, but I also feel like bosses are really judgmental. So I’m more inclined to say ADHD than autism, because I feel like they would be more like forgiving, you know, or whatever. And I’m not really showing them reasons to be worried. I don’t know, you don’t I mean? Like, basically, if you give them any power, they’re just like, ah. And so I found that interesting. And I haven’t had it back track on me yet because when I do say, I was the vice president of that, and I now say, I’m working with a disability, and I’m doing advocacy, that kind of is more of a gold star. And I think it overwrites the whole like I have a disability. But it has been interesting because it kind of forces me in that position a little bit. Or I can just not mention it, but I earned it, I want the credit. And I would also like to say I will just never be accommodated in certain things like PA school, all that jazz; I will not be able to smoke weed. There will never be a time where they’re like, oh, you have like chronic raging arthritis, and your whole body is messed up? And that’s the one thing you want to do? That’s cool. So I also just have to accept that there are certain things that will literally never be accommodated and I’ll never put that on the table.

Amanda: Thank you. And just so you guys know, I’m pretty sure you know this, but I’m not telling you to disclose or not disclose to employers or instructors. It’s your life, it’s your condition, whatever you guys want to do with it, just do it. So with me, I’m actually kind of the opposite. I actually find it a lot easier to interact with people and handle myself in situations when I do disclose, especially to instructors. That being said, I haven’t been in a work situation where my autism has come up yet. Like the only time it’s really been apparent and I kind of suspect people did suspect that I was autistic but didn’t say anything to me about it was when I was collecting observation hours in the emergency clinic. And the reason why they probably suspected something is because I can keep up with the workload really well and they were surprised by that. Like just how little I was there but I had no trouble keeping up with how high-paced and high-stress the environment was. And I really wasn’t even that stressed out by it. And no matter how emotional situations would get, I just was not bothered. I’m not sure what that says about me, the fact that I was more focused on how cool the surgeries were, rather than the fact that someone’s pet got hit by a car. That probably is not a good sign. But yeah, so that’s kind of like the only thing I can think of where my autism was probably really apparent. Otherwise, in clinical veterinary settings, I’m just so bored out of my mind because with mornings you have surgeries, and then the afternoon you have appointments and in the downtime, you either have no downtime at all, or there’s too much downtime. And either way I get either overstimulated or understimulated. When it’s like an emergency, it’s like it’s this constant stream of stimulation, where it’s like, yes. But in the future, it’s like, I’m probably I’m going to disclose that I’m autistic. Just because again, I find that open communication, it’s not really about power to me. It’s about the fact that open communication about my condition really allows me to better position myself in conversations, and I can kind of tell someone to back off if I feel like they’re kind of harassing me. One story I have is actually about a government organization. I wanted to collect observation hours. This woman was doing something very passive aggressive with me where she thought I wanted to handle animals when I’m like, no, I just want to watch the veterinarian treating the wild animals. And she kept going on and on in this email exchange trying to like accuse me of wanting to handle the animals when I’m not authorized to. And eventually, I just sent an email saying look, I’m autistic. So if I gave you the wrong idea, I’m sorry. But this is not what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to apply to vet school. I’m trying to collect observation hours. I’m not trying to handle wild animals I’m not authorized to. And then this woman’s response was to just send me an email about a member of their organization who is autistic. And I’m like, what does this have to do with our conversation? So that’s been interesting. When people think they can bully you, they’ll back off when they realize that they can’t. I don’t know, I’m not sure if that helps either of you, or reassures either of you. And I’m not telling you how to handle your situations any differently than you do. But I just think that’s always an interesting contrast, because I feel like I’m one of the few people who really is open with their condition. Like that’s actually an interesting point when I think about that. Like I know, both of you are PCC advocates, but with classes you take, would you say that you do disclose your autism and your ADHD to your instructors or not? And why or why not?

Katy: So with my instructors, I totally do, because it gives me like an amount of leverage. Usually I don’t need any help. I do like my extra time on tests just because I’m a little anxious nutbag. And there’s a couple others that are good accommodations. But usually, I can hold my head above water pretty well. But if I need anything, having done that step previously – like the world I lived in before, I never did accommodations, I never reached out to teachers, I never emailed, I didn’t communicate for crap. So when things did happen, and I was struggling, I had zero leverage. I had nothing that I had done to help myself previously. So by telling my instructors, sending like an email as soon as the class starts, just to be like, hey, this is me, I’m a perfectionist, I’ve got these accommodations, let’s make the most out of it. If anything happens, they’ll usually bend over backwards to help me and I usually have zero consequences for that. But had I not disclosed I would have had zero leverage.

Silver: For me, it’s like I have to balance how much time energy it takes to go through the all of the hoops for the accommodation stuff with how much time and energy it takes me to just do all the work assignments anyway. Because like having to log into that page and then find the right button to click, and then figure out which thing in the drop down list applies to what I need. Like that might take me an hour. And that’s an hour I could have spent reading some dumbass article. And like I did tell my Russian instructor, and I told my ballet instructor, and I don’t think I told any other instructors officially. Like I kind of don’t even know how to disclose exactly. Yeah, like the extra time on tests I have used before. And I did get to use an accommodation for having a test at the center at the campus by me. So I didn’t have to drive all the way out to Rock Creek for it. And I didn’t know that was a thing that I could use accommodations for, but that was really nice. Technically, yeah, if I drive an hour to Rock Creek that would use half of my spoons, and then I’ve done worse on the test. But yeah, this is my second year back at school after nine years of not being in school and just like running around the country. And so I’m like, how do I navigate any of this?

Amanda: That’s interesting. So instructors, both of you feel more comfortable with disclosing, but not your employers, which makes total sense by the way. Like legally speaking you have a lot more leverage there than your employers. I’m not saying do anything different. Even other neurodivergent people I’ve talked to, whether they have autism or ADHD or bipolar, it’s very varied. If they have accommodations through their university or their college, they usually just rely on the disability services offices to send out the paperwork for them after they opt for accommodations, but they don’t usually openly disclose or discuss their disability with their professor. And again, I’m kind of the opposite where it’s like yes I have DAS send in the paperwork every term assuming I need it for a class, but I always make it a point to tell professors and TAs myself that I am autistic. Because, again, it’s kind of to position myself better in a conversation. But I’ve been in a lot of situations where, because I’m so blunt and forward, I’ve been in misunderstandings before where it’s like, okay, well, I accidentally offended someone; I stepped on a landmine somehow, how did this happen? It’s really nice just to have the autism piece there. Because it’s like, I’m not really using it as a way to excuse my behavior, but I do say I’m autistic, if I offended you, I apologize. But here’s what happened from my perspective. How do we prevent this in the future? It’s kind of how I use it, and why I always do disclose it to professors and TAs. And interestingly enough, I can usually tell how a class is going to go based on their reaction to my autism. Usually, if it’s like a generic response email, like, okay, thank you for letting me know, or something like that, and they don’t really follow up with me about any specific questions about my autism, I can usually – that class is gonna go pretty mediocre. Like it’s not necessarily bad, but just pretty mediocre. But how they respond to discussion posts kind of tells me if it’s gonna go bad or good, though, because if they’re completely missing the point on my discussion post questions, then I’m like oh crap. And then it’s like I have had professors who actually are really excited I’m autistic, because they’re either autistic themselves, or they have relatives or children that are autistic, and they want to ask me more about the questions. And it’s not that I think they give me favoritism, it’s just that if they’re that interested in my autism, they actually make an effort to make their classroom environment great for all their students. So I’m kind of curious if you both would agree with that or not, actually, in terms of the sentiment of how professors react to your disability?

Silver: Yeah I’m definitely afraid of professors reacting poorly, which is part of why I don’t tend to, or I haven’t yet, like really brought it up unless I thought it was really necessary. Because in my nightmares a teacher would go, oh, you think you need special treatment now? Why should I do anything for you, or even give you the decency of listening to anything you have to say? And I already get that enough, just like without telling anyone any problems that I have. Oh, I did a great job on this Toyota. And oh, really? I hope your friend doesn’t die. Like thanks, asshole. So that goes back to the leverage thing. Like I’m afraid that if a teacher knows something like that, then they’re gonna use it against me. PCC’s instructors have mostly, like the ones I’ve had, have been really good and understanding. So maybe someday I will feel more open with instructors. And like I have one term left and it’s just with my Russian teacher and my ballet teacher, and they already know. And then I’m transferring to university after. So that’ll be a whole new situation with a whole new group of instructors. And I’m not even gonna find out if they accepted my application or whatever until May, so maybe I will tell them.

Katy: For me, it’s funny, I am trying to think if teachers kind of resonate with my experience, but I can’t really recall that. I do feel like maybe this kind of goes back to me being like a young undiagnosed girl who just kind of was expected to make it happen. So my philosophy with my teachers is that I basically just do more work than I should and kind of go over the top so that when I do need something, they kind of would have a hard time denying it to a regular student, much less one that’s already like quote on quote supposed to be getting accommodations. And I kind of hesitate in saying that, but I definitely know that that’s like my tactic. Because I think like Silver, I know this is terrible to say, but like any normal student that’s like struggling throughout the term and then they need an extension, I just see the teacher like rolling their head back in their eyes and being like, oh, my god, really? And so it’s almost like, I feel like I have to work so much harder to put myself in a position to maybe be able to ask a favor and have it be favorably looked upon. But it’s only because I’ve already gone above and beyond times like ten I don’t know. As I’m saying it out loud, it’s almost like I don’t really think I’m on the same equal level as all the students, but I think I can try and then if I wasn’t the teacher would get really annoyed with me, so yeah.

Amanda: What I would say about that is like I said, just because I handled my situation differently, that doesn’t mean you should try to handle it the way I do. Whatever works for you, you should just go with it. So that does kind of bring me to my last question, actually: would you say that ultimately is your gender kind of a barrier to not only receiving your diagnosis but also receiving accommodations, both in school and in the workplace? And I know that’s a very loaded question and both of you are free to answer however you feel comfortable.

Katy: I have to answer I don’t think I know any different. I think my best answer is I only know my experience. I kind of think that whether I was born a boy or girl, the parents that I got wouldn’t have ever put me up for a diagnosis one way or the other. And I don’t think my community would have been supporting that either. Like it was a religious community, it was in the country. And so I’m a little hard pressed to think that being a boy would have benefitted me, because I just think that where I was plopped in the world just wasn’t going to be a supportive situation. However, I do feel like even now, I couldn’t imagine bringing my ADHD with my parents. Also funny, my mom was like a special ed aide. So all throughout high school, she did that for 13 years. So in retrospect, I’m like, huh, I feel like she should have seen it. I would never bring it up either way with them, or kind of, honestly, like anyone that I kind of knew when I was younger. I just kind of feel like that door’s closed. So I’m not sure I only know what I know.

Silver: Yeah, I think being assigned female at birth has a lot to do with part of the barrier. I was born in 1991 and that was definitely when all the little white boys were being diagnosed. And even though I did look like a little white boy when I was a kid I was still treated as if I was a little girl. And the other thing, like with Katy, my parents weren’t really into diagnoses at all. Like, my family is mostly Norwegian. And they’ve got this whole stoic, you don’t go to the doctor for a cut, you know, deal with it. And also, we were always really poor. And the medical system for poor people in America is terrible. And I grew up in rural Oregon, where there’s even more like gender norms, like girls are supposed to wear dresses and not play sports, and boys are supposed to play sports and be into cars and guns. So on top of like, the regular old misogyny, there’s the medical misogyny, like girls don’t have autism or ADHD. And my parents also have this attitude of if you were to be diagnosed with anything that will give more people a chance to bully you then that’s bad. If you’re disabled that’s bad. People will treat you worse. And we don’t want to put that on your record so that people could hurt you later. But then it’s like, well, hey guys, people are already being shitty. And I saw a meme the other day that said, well, if I got a diagnosis then my label would be ADHD and autistic. Now my label is stupid, lazy, overly sensitive, crybaby weirdo. And it’s like, well, which label would you rather me have mother dearest? But then on the other hand, my mom was also really not into telling people what’s going on in her mind, and not into disclosing her emotions, and not into going to see a doctor except for physical problems. I know the brain is a part of the body, but people always treat it like it’s something special and different. Like, oh, your elbow hurts, right? Go to the doctor. Oh, you’re depressed? Well suck it up, buttercup. Like, hello, the brain is still part of the body, I think. Then on top of that, like being non-binary, I’m really into masculinity and I’m really into femininity. It’s like, I consider myself like all of the above. So it’s like, if people treat me like I’m just a woman, then that’s like, how limiting guys, how limiting. Like now I’m in this box, which is like back to you can’t be autistic or ADHD because you’re a woman. Like, no, that’s not how the world works. And right now I think the time limit, like the waiting list, is my current barrier for getting a diagnosis as right now as a 31 year old. Like maybe if I could have got diagnosed when I was a kid, I wouldn’t have to be dealing with this stuff right now.

Amanda: Thank you. So many emotions you guys have about your latent diagnosis and your childhoods, just know it’s valid. You don’t have to feel bad for feeling the way you do. And whatever memories or experiences you’re grieving or you’re processing, there’s no time limit. There is no timeline for whether or not you should be better or over something. So thank you just for sharing those experiences with me and just thank you for like just being open to discuss these issues on this podcast. The reason why I wanted to do this topic was because I just feel like it’s not discussed enough and that women and people raised as women, we’re kind of forced to just keep everything to ourselves. And to me, podcasts, and just really open discussions like this in general just make mental health, autism, ADHD and just other conditions more normalized, not only to women and people raised as woman, but just the population overall. So at least that’s what I’m hoping this will help. I also just want this to kind of be a place where we can all talk comfortably about our experiences as well. So those were all my questions for this interview. Do you guys have any clothing – oh my god, closing thoughts or comments? I’m sorry, I’m not sure why my tongue was trying to say clothing.

Katy: I have a thought, and this could say more about my current life situation than anything else, but I’m curious if either of you, you know, and I think this really kind of goes back to this whole latent diagnosis thing, I’m curious if any of you guys have familial conflict now with kind of maybe just wanting to acknowledge things for how they are? And we’re not saying they can rehash things and whatever. It’s almost like, my reality isn’t their reality. And because they just aren’t like the diagnosis kind of family I kind of have to shove it all in a box and pretend like it doesn’t exist. And if I do, it’s a really big family fight. My sister and I basically have like the world’s biggest fights ever, because it just is almost like we remember things differently that kind of in the turn of it I got this. And so I’m just curious if any of you struggle with that as an adult, because that wasn’t a conversation as a kid. And it’s great if you have an understanding family, but I don’t think that that’s always the case. And that’s a really big struggle I’m dealing with.

Amanda: I can go first, or Silver, if you want to go first go ahead.

Silver: Oh, I was just thinking about how, since my mom died, trying to go through this process of getting diagnosed, finally. And I brought all these notes to my dad. And my brother was there too and he was listening in and he comes out and goes, hey, guys, I think this all relates to me too. And I go, oh, well, you know [unclear], so you probably are. And it’s been kind of nice since my mom died that my brother and I can get along a little bit because I hadn’t talked to either of them in two years or more. I think it’d been more years since I spoke to my brother. I was always way more close to my dad. And like bringing anything up with him is sometimes, oh, well why is this a problem? Or, I think you’re cool! It’s like dad, dad, dad, it doesn’t matter what you think, it matters how the world treats me. I mean, they both matter. But like, you are also being crippled by late stage capitalism, like, don’t pretend that you’re not. I think my dad has ADHD. Like how the world treats you is literally killing you, dad, please take this seriously.

Amanda: So for me, it wasn’t that I didn’t have a supportive family, it’s just that my mom did not receive the diagnosis that she should have for me. Like she took me to three different specialists from when I was six to like, age, I want to say seven. Not even six or seven, I think it was like four to five, because she did not want the elementary school I was going to put a label on me. Because apparently when they were assessing me, I don’t even know why they were assessing me, she didn’t even say why, but in the span of like 20 minutes or so, this guy, I don’t even know what his credentials were, who knows, he said I would never read. At age four or five he said I would never read based on the fact that I had no interest in interacting with him. And my mom just did not trust the school system after that. And I’m glad she did not take this guy seriously because I can read, I can promise you both I can read. But in my childhood, I was excluded a lot from my cousins because I was just older than them and I just couldn’t keep up with them socially or mentally or physically. So as an adult, it was interesting when I kind of told my mom about my autism diagnosis, she was actually very supportive. She was very accepting. And she was actually really relieved that she finally had an answer to what was going on with me when I was a kid. She didn’t say what was wrong with me, but she still has a lot of bad habits where it’s like she still treats me as neurotypical, but she is kind of learning how to actually talk with me in conversations. So I’m not sure if this answers Katy’s question, but I feel like my familial relationships have improved since my diagnosis. And I don’t really bring it up or make it a point of conversation a lot of times, but if it ever comes up, I don’t hesitate to talk about it. A lingering discussion I would like to have with a relative of mine is actually my aunt who’s an elementary school teacher. And apparently when I told my mom this, my mom told me my aunt’s reaction was, yeah, I always kind of figured Amanda was autistic. And I’m like, why did you not tell my mom? You’re an elementary school teacher. Why did you not bring up autism to my mother? Like dude, that does not help me now and that doesn’t make me happy that you saw signs and you didn’t say anything. So I’m not sure if that answers Katy’s question, but that’s kind of my two cents on that.

Katy: I would also like to add one last thing to my family is I think that it might specifically be them. But having a mental illness to them is not a good thing. You basically are a lesser person because of it. And so for a while, they would throw out things like bipolar or whatever, and they still will do it kind of interchangeably. But I would say having a mental health diagnosis in my family is like giving them ammunition. And that’s not a good thing, though I appreciate that’s not a thing with your family, or Silver’s.

Amanda: I don’t know. Another thing I would say about your childhood Katy is it kind of made me think of my sister and I. So my sister is six years younger than me and she’s always been treated very differently than me because not only is she a lot younger, but because she is neurotypical. So like, you know how I mentioned I hated bananas? Guess what my sister’s favorite, favorite fruit in the world was, or still is?

Silver: Banana?

Amanda: Oh, yes. Oh my god, I hated the smell of the kitchen. Like I just had to basically just get used to it throughout my childhood. My sister kind of gets annoyed with me whenever I bring that up. And she happened to like just foods that smelled terrible to me that just made me gag. Like, there were these disgusting microwave pancakes she was obsessed with that I just can’t eat. I just gag whenever I even smell them out of the microwave now. I forgot what they were called, it like started with a K and it was like in this blue box, but anyways. And then there was this Rice A Roni flavor that she loved that I hated because again, the smell. Like it smelled like vomit to me, quite honestly. So does baby formula, interestingly, I’m not sure why it just smells like vomit to me. And it was a day of joy when my mom discovered that the Rice a Roni company was no longer making that flavor. I think it was like white cheddar and broccoli I want to say. So anyways, the reason I bring that up, Katy, is because honestly, you and your sister did have a very different childhood. It’s not that you’re not sharing memories with her, it’s just her perception is going to be completely different from yours, just because she doesn’t have ADHD it’s just not going to be the same. And I don’t know if your sister is older or younger than you. But I’m gonna guess, and I don’t want to make any presumptions about your family or your childhood, but, if it’s what I think it is, I would say that she’s also going to view your parents very differently as well. So if you’re frustrated by that, just know you’re not alone. And again, that doesn’t make your experience or your memories any less valid.

Silver: Oh, this reminded me that I was the first child born of all of my Grandma’s kids’ kids. Like, my dad was her first child, and she had three boys and a girl, And her girl, her daughter died at 16. So my Grandma just had three boys. And then my dad had me, and then my brother, and then his brother had two boys. So like me, and my Grandma, and my mom, and my Uncle’s wife were the only like, females in the family. And so that probably also contributed a lot to, you know, family dynamics and medical stuff and all that. And then I’m like, oh, well, I’m going to reject all of this. So yeah, my mom was also like, you have to be my little girl. And I was like, but I’m not. Yeah, I didn’t get along with my mom at all.

Amanda: That’s okay. You’re not gonna get any judgment for me for not getting along with one of your parents. Thank you both for joining me for this. And again, if you see any other topics on the sign-up sheet, go ahead and just sign up. I would love to have both of you on for another episode. And thank you so much for just sharing your experiences and just being willing to talk about this.

Katy: Thanks, Amanda. You did really good. Because my thing is, I can show up right now, I have no other energy to do anything else, but I can show up. So you did all the other stuff and I showed up. So props to you. You did a lot.

Silver: Yeah, thanks for doing this. It was fun to be here.

Amanda: Overall, autism and ADHD can manifest in many different forms and is often not discussed in the context of women and people raised as women. There is a lot of overlap in terms of how we regulate ourselves and how we ensure our own productivity. If I were to identify the primary difference it is that autistic people have longer periods of intense focus on our special interest. In ADHD people have much shorter periods. When approached from a positive mindset both can have their advantages, but the effects of each condition can also result in exhaustion and depression. Silver and Katy discussed their experiences very well and I’m very grateful for their participation today. With that, I hope you enjoyed our talk and tune in for the next one.

Carrie: Thanks again for listening to “Let’s Talk”. Tune in for another episode soon and be sure to check out our website pcc.edu/disability-cultural-alliance/ to find more episodes and other resources regarding disability culture at PCC.